i loved this story. NPR carried it this morning as well. Its a shame I think, because (and i know i may take shit for this from some)a military career can be a huge opportunity for people from really challenging situations, like low-income families or people who can't afford college. that's why the GI Bill is so awesome. but the problem is that now we have a militray that is both dishonest (backdoor draft) and skewed towards the most underpriveleged in our society. it all adds up to bullshit and to a suddenly weak military.

A 14-year veteran speaks.

This unrestrained anti-military reflex present in the Dems is why we are out of power. Dems such as the wild-eyed young man above can't distinguish between a badly-conceived war and the noble intent, the sacrifice of the warrior (believe me, that young Marine recruiter is putting up with a lot - recruiting duty isn't voluntary).

Dems pay lip service to the notion of military service, alright, but when push comes to shove hotter heads prevail and the Party base's true colors show through. To Dems like Riisa, military members are either:

1) predators
2) victims

Even in my red little corner of the world many, many folks who are pre-disposed toward Democratic visions of economic and social justice are COMPLETELY ALIENATED by this leftist construction. For the average patriotic American - even those who have issues with Bush, Iraq, etc. - this crap is just too much to swallow.

So, my advice to fellow Dems: You have a problem with the war? Fine. But for the sake of your Party, please don't take it out on the recruiters. Just shut your mouth and walk away.

i don't think that this needs to be seen as a leftist vs. miltary issue.

the parents of Garfield High School don't want military recruiting going on in their schools, and i can't say i disagree with them. if that's what the parents want, then that's fine.

i think the broader issue here is the federal governments roll in state and local issues. sure, the GOP like to tout that it's for state's rights and for local control, but time after time after time you can see it isn't true any more.

how come parents can prevent condoms from being given out at their high school, but can prevent military recruiters from being on school ground?

that being said, the increasing belief that liberals are against the military is an important one. i think most liberals have the same problems with the miltary that i have. i honor and respect those that serve in the military. no one should ever doubt that those who serve are brave and selfless.

however, i fear the increasing power of the "military industrial complex" a term that comes from REPUBLICAN President Eisenhower. He also knew a thing or two about the military.

i honor and respect the elisted man. i distrust the rumsfelds of the petagon which have never served and see war as a means to peace. i fear the corporations which make money off of human suffering and war.

I think you raise a very good point Daniel and I'm glad you posted that here. I am the proud daughter of two career soldiers in a long line of career soldiers. My younger brother recently returned from spending the better part of 12 months in Iraq. Growing up on military bases, I know first hand you would be hard pressed to find a more compassionate, caring, honorable community than what you find there. Generally those who choose to dedicate a part of their life to the military are patriots who love their country and have a desire to serve, but Daniel you have to see as well as I do that these people are getting screwed. Not because they're victims, but because being in the military means you give up part of your right to fight for your rights.

Veterans are facing the possibility that they may have to pay premiums for care they receive at the VA for the first time in our history, and that's if they can get into the VA at all. Soldiers who have honorably and faithfully fulfilled their commitment are being informed that they are being held over for the length of combat plus 6 months, at this point that's considered 2026. National Guard troops are enduring 12 and 18 month deployments. Veterans who are eligible for retired pay are still dealing with concurrent receipt.

So, the recruiting issue is a problem. Recruiters are between a rock and hard place because they have to get their numbers and it's hard to attract people who know that they're signing up to go to Iraq of Afghanistan. As a result some of them are resorting to tactics that are not only outside of military protocol, but illegal.

The leftist construction you mention is rooted in the Vietnam war, and the doves that were present even before that. But there is also a conservative construction at work here which says any questioning of the military and it's practicies and policies is inherently anti-military. That doesn't leave room for any of us to have an honest dialog about what we need to do to maintain a common defense that honors not only the sacrafice of the men and women who take up that mantle, but our values as Americans and the image that carries around the world.

I'm not anti-military, and while when the Air Force recruiter called my house senior year of high school I told him I'm a pacifist, honestly, I'm not. I think that military intervention has its place. My father served in the Navy, and I'm proud of that.

However. What I hate about military recruitment is that poor kids get targeted. I very much understand that military service gives a lot of kids a chance at a good life they wouldn't ordinarily get-- my father is an example of that-- but the trade-off is that you have to put yourself at the risk of death in order to get out of poverty.

This shouldn't be the only way our country helps its poorest children, and nothing anyone can say about free will and the need to defend our country will change my mind about that.

This is one place where I'm interested in the idea of universal service. If you could get the same benefits of joining the military i.e the GI bill, a signing bonus, regular pay and benefits that include housing, by signing up to teach in schools that need teachers, or work on conservation and water management projects in the west, or registering children for S-CHIP, or helping low income Americans navigate the EITC the benefits could be amazing for the whole country.

Leon Panetta, one of my favorite political people, said that his experience being drafted was one of the defining elements in his decision to become involved with politics. It forced him out of his comfort zone in the Bay Area and to serve with people from different economic, social, religious and ethnic backgrounds and learn that there was more that tied them together than pulled them apart. Maybe a little universal service can help us reach for that dream.

Back in college a friend and I sat around plotting a service obligation for American kids-- something like either military, Peace Corps, or AmeriCorps. But you could also throw Teach for America in there too, or a range of programs we've never thought of. I know people object to the idea of being forced to "give up" a couple of years of their life after high school or college (I know I would have), but done right I think it could be an amazing experience for everyone involved.

Recently a fairly close friend of mine freaked out when I said that I felt that US troops should be accountable for their actions and since they have every opportunity to become conscientious objectors to this very fucked up war, well - I don't really feel like rooting for the home team here. He took this as a personal insult because he knew some army buddies and they were fine individuals. He also pointed out that people are harassed, beaten, and thrown in jail if they object to the war. I felt that being harassed, beaten, and thrown in jail before murdering innocent people was the American Way. He threatened to "pound" me (it caught me by surprise too, I thought he was a hippy).

Were it not for a drum circle on a beach at a house owned by a guy named bob, bioluminscent algae in the wake of a midnight crab run after stepping into cancer causing Puget Sound, and the ambrosia of the west coast (good beer) - we would likely be at the crossroads last established where I thanked him kindly for visiting and asked him never to return.

My point here is this, a ton of people have military service experience...some of it's great, downright shitty, or fucking criminal.

When it comes to aggressively recruiting a targeted demographic based largely on an economic situation our government, industry, and ourselves are largely to blame for in order to fill the missing volunteers who have dwindled in number I ask you: why have they dwindled?

Who, with the slightest bit of information and money, would join the military right now? We're certainly not defending the country in Iraq are we? Isn't that why people are so proud of the military, because it defends our freedom? Perhaps the problem is that our military is being used as a literal force of democracy that will crush anything in the way of money/freedom.

Our troops aren't even the heroes hunting terrorists for the most part...for crying out loud that's what we went to war for and you think we should just let these bastards use desperate children as fodder for this campaign?

We're in what appears to be a never ending war with an enemy who wasn't really our enemy. We are aggressively bullying other nations, inviting conflict left and right, without a thought in the world about our reserve status when someone fights back - like Iran. Terrorist attacks are on the rise globally and al Qaeda never lets us go too long without a reminder they still want to kick our ass.

So who do recruiters target? They target those who don't know what they're getting into. They target those who believe in this country because they were taught to but are hopefully unaware of how bad the insurgency really is in Iraq. They target those who dream of a future that the US can't promise they can pay for any longer.

So when it comes down to it, I don't think the US military has the slightest right to exploit America's children by agressively selling them military service like car commercial dreams without a hint of reality.

You call dems anti-military? They just passed that hefty extra bit of spending for the Iraq war didn't they? They did that because they were so scared it would be used against them if they didn't and because they support the troops.

If dems are to stand up at all they need to stand up and demand answers for this conflict because we need to know exactly what is going on in these unilateral actions before we let them push is further into the maelstrom they created.

Last point...I respect in every way that you are a veteran but I do not respect that you feel your term in service somehow gives you authority or whatever justification is present in using it in the manner of some sort of guru..."A 14-year veteran speaks."...where the hell is the burning bush?

End Rant...

"for the sake of your Party, please don't take it out on the recruiters. Just shut your mouth and walk away."

I want to agree with guys like you. I really do. I believe that the majority of the people we need to include in our tent are folks who have a positive pre-disposition towards the military and towards service. I don't think we should go after them because they have that value, but because they live in places where that value is common.

But then you lose me when you argue that the military and its recruitment policies are beyond repraoch. See, the problem with guys like you is that you think that your service makes you somehow immune to criticism. Congrats buddy, you served. Hope it felt good.

The problem is, that as much as i respect you for serving, i respect my friend nick foir taking two years off his career ( a very lucrative one) and serving as a public school teacher in the south bronx. now, he didn't happen to have a gun, but many of his stidents did. and guess what? he helped a lot of them get ahead, he changed a lot of lives.

Now, maybe its ok in your head that our military recruits almost solely from that income strata. maybe its ok that in order to fund a war that we now know to have been a huge blunder, my friend nick's program has been cut. maybe its ok that the kids that went from that poverty to iraq did so believing they had to or that they woulkd be allowed to come home when they were told they could originally, only to find out that they'd been lied to. but that ain't ok for me.

i haven't served in the military. oops. sorry. but you know what? i have served my community over and over again. and like it or not, the last time i checked, the fact that i vote and pay taxes means that i have the right and responsibility to critique the military i pay for and approve.

Why do you hate America?