It's not just the local right-wing blog that advocates tax evasion, it's anyone with money and without a civic or social conscience.

See the recent stories in the Seattle P-I about the Washington State Department of Revenue (DOR) backing off on collecting tax on high-priced art when DOR started receiving letters written by high-priced lawyers complaining about the art tax.

Anyone who has ever signed a Tim Eyman peitition or voted for an Eyman initiative fits into this category as well, and it's all part of the "I want it but I'm not going to pay for it" mentality that has plunged us into debt while our infractructure, schools and medical system have spiraled down the drain.

these very short sighted people just see the impact on their immediate cash flow. nobody seems to have convinced them that taxes are an investment. its very sad.

that art tax thing cracks me up. can you imagine having the gall to write that letter?

i evade taxes too, federal taxes that is. i refuse to pay for this immoral war, and i don't. the difference here is that my actions are based on moral principles rather than selfish greed and materialism.

i have to disagree with you on that one. i almost put this issue in my post. i disagree with many things that the federal government does. i hate the iraq war and i think the missile defense money is the biggest violation of the american tax payer.

however, i support federal welfare, social security, the EPA, the parks service... damn there are so many that i can't even name them.

but, joe red from alabama might hate all of that stuff.

so is democracy. if you want to help build a positive society then you need to pay your taxes for everything. earmarking your money for certain programs won't work, either. i've thought of that.

hate war? hate most of the things the pentagon does?

work for change... work for change. vote, get others to vote and (in your own state) use the initiative process if you can.

cheating the park service, cheating social security, cheating others doesn't sound like the answer.

grant, good comments and i appreciate your perspective. i also share the view that taxes should be a social investment. and fyi, i do pay my soc security taxes... but where do we draw the line? taking your example, how many lives is the park system worth? if we kill 10,000 in iraq should i still pay taxes, but at 150,000 should i stop? to really understand where i am coming from take a look at thoreau's essay on civil disobedience... as relevant today as it was over 100 years ago.

More than a year ago now I quit my job because I simply couldn't fathom contributing to the rage, lie, and greed fueled slaughter of innocents in Iraq and elsewhere. Taking what little I had I've made it this far but am nearing that point where I haven't anything left. It hurts to say that and reflect upon the comfortable lifestyle of such recent memory but that pain is a mere pinprick compared to the sense of pride I have in not participating in the madness leading this nation straight to the crapper.

Since then I've been working on my own non-profit, volunteering at TESC, and assisting others with ways to help the world. It's a pretty hard life but I gotta admit that there is no better feeling than not contributing to this crap-ass nation's democracy by force + environmental chaos efforts.

I don't know what everyone's situation is but I do know that many families can't simply walk off their job. That's understandable. The family always comes first, such is life.

Those of us who don't have families can do something about what they are contributing to the madness though.

Can they quit their jobs like me? Possibly.
Can they simply stop paying taxes? Possibly.
Can they take advantage of tax shelters like the uber rich? Oh yea =)
Can they stop buying gas? Definitely
Can they take part in protests? They should be anyway.
Can they write their reps? You betcha!

The costs to our society, infrastructure, and relationships in this country would be fairly tragic but this is where taking part in your community to insure that the basic humanist defined needs are available locally.

Until such time as we are able to select which programs we want to individually support and how much support we are willing to offer there are really few open channels available to let our government know how we feel in a manner that reminds them who is working for whom. The way things are going though I suspect many people won't have much of a choice but to rely on their community instead of their government for any aid that isn't related to greenbacks, faith, or whatever else strikes the fancy of the amusingly named moral majority.

But there are a number of things that can insure that communities continue to thrive despite the backwards nature of our current governing body. Through local cooperatives devoted to sustainable agriculture, medicine, green power generation (power grid is still flunking), education, etc there is certainly a way to insure that at least locally - all ends are taken care of.

This cool, albeit fanciful, method of peaceful resistance not only sends a message but it immediately cuts the biggest incentive to negative behavior by taking away the confidence they have we'll support future bouncy check writing for idiotic wars.

The point here is that we can all be doing something, anything at all that suggests we won't stand for this any longer but we're not gonna take the easy way out and raise our fists, we make the system so we can effectively break it by no-longer adding to it.

btw, i know this isn't relevant so in closing I'd just like to point out that to help cut the massive subsidies, sound transit could consider hauling freight in addition to passengers on both the light rail and commuter rail lines. they also might try expanding service down to olympia, hopefully through leasing the rail lines instead of building proprietary rail just for them. not only would this be an excellent hub for an interstate commuter line between seattle and portland but it would also serve to get some of the ft. lewis/mccord traffic cut to avoid the bottlenecks occuring on a daily basis. i also think the trains/buses should be snazzed up a bit by local artists instead of looking like a phallic seahawks helmet. it'd be dreamy if they'd just kill the fairbox but that's just not gonna happen.

just want to give you mad props for taking your convictions so seriously. that is rare in this age of quick opinions and easy changes of mind.

i agree, it's a sticky situation and it depends on where everyone draws their own line.

got a link to thoreau's essay? i could look at home through my books, but online is soooo easy ;)

let's face it, most people can't quit their job, most people rely on several of the services which the government provides, most people don't have the education, knowledge, social backround or time to figure out how to use tax shelters which are designed for the rich, and most people (believe it or not) cannot simply give up gasoline (on that last point, for a view of how unbelievably dependent the entire structure of our country is on gasoline, check out James Howard Kunstler's The Long Emergency).

so, knowing this, how can we change the system? are there models for paying your taxes that allow for earmarking your dollars for only certain programs? would this work? would programs like welfare collapse?

i respect both hhz's and upchuck's point of view but, while they speak from a point of social responsibility, i believe that the unwillingness to pay for ANYTHING in this country is a larger sign of a people which care less and less about the greater good and more and more about themselves.

wow, i'm moved to see such conviction expressed in this thread... hhz, you rock my man.

i want to throw a few ideas out there for consideration. what i think hhz and i am talking about is actively working towards a new paradigm for how our society functions, partly by passively not supporting the corrupt and downright evil institutions that comprise our current paradigm

first abother arguement to justify not contributing to our system... if you were lived in nazi germany, when would have it become appropriate to stop paying taxes to hitler's regime? after one innocent person was killed in the death camps? or maybe that's not a high enough standard, so maybe after 1000 were killed? 10,000? 100,000? does this comparison seem absurd? we've killed over 100,000 in iraq in an illegal war. to withold taxes in light of these attorcities is not at all an act of selfishness as grant suggests. many peope risk jail time, monetary punishment, and indeed their lives to fight these injustices. hardly a selfish act in my opinion.

what i see as selfish is the choice many people make to not give up the indulgent materialistic lifestyle that defines america today in exchange for a more peaceful and just society. people can quit their jobs, get off of oil, and survive without goverment assistance, but it might mean no cars, tv's, computers, carribean vacations, and expensive drinks in swanky clubs, and people wont give this up. now tell me, what is more selfish

i know this is not exactly a conscious choice for most people... people do feel helpless, but this is becasue they have not yet seen the other possiblities that exist. there are independent movements that are finding ways to exist sustainably free form our economy. perma-culture is a great example of an independent way to live... and live abundantly!

what i have done so far is similar to hhz. i quit my job and have lived somewhat off of savings. i've given up many of the material indulgences i used to feel addicted to - cable internet and tv, cell phone, eating out, etc etc. i grow as much food as i can in my backyard garden. i ride my bike often and i'm currently plannig to get off of oil with a veggie car running on recycled cooking oil (i know this is not sustainable on a national scale, but it is a positive step). oh, and i do vote, work for change, am politically active, and participate whole heartedly in the war protests. i do a few small cash jobs from time to time, but that is quite insignificant. my income tax returns were not falsified, i still paid soc security, but my income was so low that i didn't have to pay income tax. and you know what? i don't feel poor. i feel like i am living abundantly. there is no amount of money that can buy food as fresh, healthy and tasty as the fare i grow in my back yard, there is no luxury car with comforts that make me feel as good as i do after a vigorous ride to work on my bike. and every time i see cable tv at a friends house i feel so liberated to know that my mind i free from the propaganda machine.

i know these are only small steps and that i haven't accomplished anything amazing or freed myself in any sense from dependence on our society. but i wnat peopoe to know that there are things we CAN do and and that making changes is not impossible.

I think it's all a question of degrees. I, for instance, believe in cities. I think cities and urban living are the answer to the social justice and environmental crises we face. Cities, healthy ones that promote good density and reject sprawl, use exponentially less energy per capita and allow us to protect wetlands and vulnerable areas. I don't think people should go off the grid, i think they should move to the grid, the downtown grid.

The problem we face is that the conservatice movement wants to cut resources to cities because it thinks they are expensive. They don't quite grasp that in the last 80 years we have seen a huge shift in population disbursement. did you know that whereas at the beginnig of the last century only 10% of all people lived in or around a city, now 50% of all humans live in or around one?

so, i stand with you in spirit, though i take issue with your implementation.

this is great... let's keep it going! anyone else want to pipe in?

once again, i present these questions:

are there ways we change the system working within it, or should we applaud its collapse? are there models for paying your taxes that allow for earmarking your dollars for only certain programs? would this work? would programs like welfare collapse?

i am of the opinion that we need to work within the system (that includes paying your taxes) if we are to change it... partly because i don't believe that hhz & upchucks lifestyle (while i greatly admire and respect it) is going to become the next craze and partly because i believe the more we give up on this system (which i believe will last for quite a long time) the less likely we are ever going to be able to help shape it into something positive for the future.

any ideas?

benny, i agree that concentrated urban areas are the key to protecting our environment and conserving resources. good points. i don't suggest that you have to be a daniel boone to live more sustainably. there are some ways people can take advantage of cities to that end. a couple come to mind right now...

1. buy food from farmers' markets - the average bite of food travels 1500 miles from where it's grown to where it's eaten. can you imagine how much oil this takes?!? even the crunchy pcc outlets sell mostly produce form cali and mexico (while my veggies are growing strong and healthy in my N seattle back yard!) also we would be supporting local economies.

2. bike or bus to work - another way to get off of oil

3. live closer to work

4. stop buying (and throwing away) so much crap!!! i recall a story on npr a year or so ago of how poor kids in bombay india had turf wars over who could collect recylclable plastic from which dumpsters to sell for lunch money!!! we waste so much.

I think these are great suggestions and ones that I am also trying to implement in my life. Also, while it is highly admirable that hhz and upchuck have so drastically changed their lives in order to reduce their impact on the planet, I tend to think that the more gradual solutions are the ones that will be most widely implemented. Think about how much more people recycle now than 20 years ago! Most people, even if they want a clean environment and energy independence, will not be willing or able to give up their jobs in order to stop paying income taxes. You are welcome to criticize them (and me) for being too lazy or selfish to make more drastic changes and you may very well be right. But I want to find and advocate for ways that will actually result in less energy use and less damage to the environment, and I think incremental changes on a wide scale are probably going to be more successful than a few people here and there making a drastic change. Of course, living by example is definitely a good way to inspire change, but the more drastic the example, the less people are going to be inspired and the more they are going to think you are crazy - and the more they are going to think "there's no way I could do that".

Another approach to consider: appeal to people with the quality-of-life aspects of a more simple life. Personally, I spent 6 months commuting 20 miles to work each way, and I hated it. It exhausted me. I was always fighting to stay awake on my drive home, which is both unpleasant and unsafe. Now I drive 10 miles each way. I could still do better, and my next move will bring me even closer to work, but even so, the 10-mile commute (avoiding I5 entirely) makes me much, much happier and healthier than the 20-mile commute. While I do feel good about using less oil, the more tangible benefits are that I have more time and energy to do other things when I get home from work!

Of course, there are many, many people out there who have the attitude that they have the right to live the way they do, that it is the American Way, that they have a right to their enormous SUV or truck, that they have a right to live 30 or 40 miles from work. Ultimately in order to convince these people to reduce their environmental footprint, it would be necessary to force them out of their fiercely independent mindset and into a more communal mindset... which I don't really know how to do on a wide scale. It may be that a sharp spike in gas prices (even more than we've had recently) will be the only thing that can convince some people to move closer to their work, or work closer to their home. (Do you really think that Europeans use less energy because they are simply more virtuous than Americans? Don't forget that the cost of energy is much higher in Europe! Our extreme level of energy consumption is a direct result of our access to cheap oil.) And I have a sinking feeling that it's going to happen sooner or later. So in the meantime, I am taking steps in my own life to try to reduce the impact that such a spike would have on my life, by reducing my oil consumption.

Also... some small ways to reduce the amount of stuff consumed:

Use a cloth or mesh tote bag when you buy groceries (I still forget sometimes, but I'm trying!)

On work days, bring lunch from home (less styrofoam or plastic silverware to throw away) in a reusable or recyclable bag. I often use the plastic grocery bags which I have acquired on the days I forget to bring my grocery tote bag.

When you buy one or two small things at a store, say "I don't need a bag".

In general, buy less stuff. It'll be easier next time you have to move! Borrow books from the library, rent movies from a video store or netflix (very little packaging!), etc.

Buy "whole" foods in bulk or with minimal (or at least recyclable) packaging, rather than processed foods packaged in several layers of plastic. It's healthier for you anyway.

Next time you take out the trash, take a quick peek to see what you are throwing away. Is there anything in there that you didn't need to acquire in the first place?

This is a very, very, very long rebuttal. Go get some beer and read it with the family but hide your guardian's eye's so they aren't offended by the minimal foul language.

So onto a rebuttal of Grant's postulating comment: "Not Realistic"

Part 1: The paragraph of shame!

Grant: let's face it, most people can't quit their job, most people rely on several of the services which the government provides, most people don't have the education, knowledge, social background or time to figure out how to use tax shelters which are designed for the rich, and most people (believe it or not) cannot simply give up gasoline (on that last point, for a view of how unbelievably dependent the entire structure of our country is on gasoline, check out James Howard Kunstler's The Long Emergency)."

Every person in this nation can quit their job but I recognize that limitations for every person may prevent them from doing such a thing. As such there are a number of ways to insure that every person can quit their job and still retain access to the basic needs of humanity at a very comfortable level one such method is by working together to insure a local trade economy, separate from the federal economy exists. The question that upchuck poses is a good one though, exactly when are people going to stand up against the rather obvious tyranny? I have, as have others...when the fuck are progressives, liberals, and those wacky moderates going to get involved here?

No-one has indicated in any way that we return to the tree's and throw poo at the toxic avenger. There are options beyond just becoming an anarchist, revolutionary, or regurgitator of the soap box. I'm just saying that people should start thinking of clever socially beneficial ways to let the GOP know that we have been studying what they've been up to and are quite ready to give them the great big fuck you until our federal government can actually be a representation of the people instead of self interest.

With exception to social security and the interstate transportation system I believe that many of the social services the federal government provide should immediately cease. Harsh eh? It's not...I promise.

Frankly I have come to notice that managing our needs is simply too much for the U.S Government. Consider if you will how complicated providing equal social services to a nation that has clear regional differences. The true benefits of having state's is that the state can actually better understand the needs of the people far better than the nation can. Our taxes that go to the federal government now for social needs would be far better served at the state, county, and civic level wouldn't they?

Utilizing those funds states, counties, and communities could design and create the level of social support they need. As an example, utilizing funds for education, we could make sure that each and every child in our state has a place to objectively learn with all the materials they need; about the world, nation, town, and everything else they need to grow into adulthood with the ability to achieve the dreams they want to fulfill. My education sucked (I'll explain a bit about why in another long post tomorrow) and I've found that you certainly are right that a number of people seem rather ignorant however there is an abudnance of accessible knowledge available, freely, that can be taken advantage of by everyone who makes the choice to step out of pandora's box.

30 seconds of googling, some dollars, and a name for your PO Box based business is all you need to fly the tax shelter business class airline of America. Sure am glad most of the countries who are offering these tax shelter's were part of many a US involvement to keep those commies, drug dealers, and evil-doers at bay.

I think we need to put this gasoline issue into a frame of reference to better address it.

First off let's point out that modern man (post Mitochondrial Eve) is around 71,000 years old. I'm afraid that 152 years use of petroleum (130 years since engine's we're familiar with were invented) does not an evolutionary change make. As petroleum supplies tap out we will see prices skyrocket negating the convenience of using this fuel for personal transportation as a matter of convenience. Demand now outpaces peak supply of these hydrocarbons of million year old catastrophic kodak moments that we spew into our own fragile geosphere.

Next I'd like to point out that there are several alternative fuel sources available. Not only can people depend upon biomass but as demand increases for such products local farmers can utilize technology like underground hydroponic growing facilities to have one hell of a biomass cash crop. Therefore it would stand to reason that a community cooperative devoted to not just biomass, but other alternative energy choices to meet the needs of the people, would help people make sure they aren't depending on just the federal government for such critical resources.

As well I'd like to point out that the uses for petroleum are many. Prescription drugs, plastics, fertilizers (i dislike those but it's part of a point), and quite a number of other things we use will become far more expensive as supplies dwindle. In this case a collaborative, open source effort might be made to help us find ways to recycle existing plastics or construct new raw materials out of our tremendous archive of waste.

From the mere glance at the impacts of our dependence upon petroleum to such a large degree. The environment and the human impacts. People should have realized what damage they were causing by getting so comfortable with something so definitely wrong. All the nasty biproducts of the convenient automobile running on cheap fuel should have been something everyone considered from the first sign of traffic, smog, political conflicts, and sudden upswing in suburban development that has reduced this nations beauty to an eyesore every fucking way you look at it. You should of all stood up a long time ago and I wish you had. What really is fucking getting to me is that I was born into the mess a mere four generations of humanity managed to make of a 71,000 year old species, and most of you still haven't gotten the clue.

When people suggest that humans can't give up gasoline they aren't talking the end of the world though are they...they're talking about how difficult life becomes without the car. Much of that can be dealt with by living a lifestyle that's a bit less centered on having a yard to decorate with those tacky cement statues or the unbelievably stupid belief that suburban/rural schools don't have their share of problems. Try walking, buses, etc. It works and the more use mass transit and body power the healthier both services become.

The society I was born into is fucked up (yes there's good points, but why the hell would I rant about them). I'm doing my part to fix it, why the hell are you all satisfied with the way things are? I know..it takes time right? Well it's gonna take fucking forever if you sit on your asses waiting for people to do all the work for you just by sacrificing that little bit of your paycheck. It's time to grow up and get a clue that it is clearly not in the best interest of either the democrats or republicans to fix the problems we face right now.

Part 2: Short Questions With Complex Answers

Grant #1: "so, knowing this, how can we change the system?"

Five ways, among many, I'm fighting with the man:

1. Unity Association: A down-low foundation I've built to help non-profits, activists, and communities work together to achieve sustainability through fancy collaborative efforts that quietly, cheaply, and cleverly give our current administration the finger. With a number of strategies/actions of my own and friends with strategies/actions of their own to make sure action follows knowledge gained by really learning all they can and communicating with others about what an individual can really do to help make the world a better place. Think of it al Qaeda meets White Hats meets Ghandi, a loosely organized individually driven network of a variety of engineers who happen to think that strategies for change that work best involve local level change with little attention and no violence. Be vewwy vewwy quiet..we're seecrit.

2. Find a home for Olympia Freeschool: The Olympia Free School is a non-profit adventure in community based skill learning center that helps people from the community spend some time teaching people a skill they enjoy as a hobby, work, therapy, etc. They sustain themselves by offering donation based space for a number of individuals, non-profits, activists, and groups that need a place to work from. With increasingly popularity, limited space, and opportunities to grow they are seeking to relocate to a permanent home. I'm helping to raise funds and find or help build the home Free Schoolers dream of because they deserve to achieve their dreams. By using nifty fund raising tactics like benefit concerts, supper clubs, auctions, etc as well as begging for donations (if you have the ability to help out and wouldn't mind, please go here for info) I'm hoping to help this great concept go even further.

3. TESC Sustainability part 1: Bringing Recoil (a non-profit), Evergreen students, WashPIRG, and an advisory group together so that they can examine the possibility of retrofitting existing natural gas/diesel boilers with a burner that utilizes waste vegetable oil instead. A complicated undertaking that involves a number of factors such as capturing emissions, reducing water consumption, and a community effort to gather fuel from local businesses (possibly harming the biodiesel effort locally) - this project would itself reduce the schools dependence upon natural gas but also save the college between $700,000 and $800,000 a year.

4. Aramark: Working with several students from many different colleges I'm developing a web portal solution geared toward making every student union aware that Aramark has a very bad reputation of labor exploitation, discrimination against homosexuals, poor or dangerous service, and unethical behavior. By working together students will be forcing Aramark to either change their ways or find a different customer base that will put up with their bullshit.

5. Tattle Tale Central: A oxymoron for what is actually a decentralized network of legal botnets operated by individuals to scrape data from information stores that is used to assemble the most accurate picture possible. When sufficient evidence is gathered we will be utilizing every means necessary to drop an information bomb that let's people know what's up by making sure they really understand why we need to stand up and hold both ourselves and the idiots who've led us here accountable for what we've done. I think a class action lawsuit on behalf of every civilian casualty in the War on Terrorism, filed by the people against themselves, the governments involved, and the manufacturer of any device that fails to hit its target or otherwise harms innocents (i.e. unexploded cluster bombs, uranium tipped weapons, cruise missiles gone awry).

There are many other things I'm involved in, all of them legal and pretty damn good natured ways to help our nation grow into something cool instead of this festering puss boil that is us.

Grant #2: are there models for paying your taxes that allow for earmarking your dollars for only certain programs?

I believe that if we collaboratively develop a secure method of taking part in governance, i.e. a speshul device that converges voip mobile phone tech, pda tech, automated personal assistant tech, non-diebold themed voting tech, secured wireless networks, variable interfaces, media players, game players, access to self-study education resources, and most importantly...video phones...as well as other mediums like web pages, a house of commons like debate center in every hood, then we can do something really amusing.

If we have the tools we can ask that we be allowed to select which programs we support directly thereby forcing full disclosure of program specifics that are described in a manner that demand all individuals understand the issue. If we say what's funded then their power is limited to trying to sell us on ideas they will have to back up with information every person in this nation must have access to.

Further this method should be expanded to help facilitate understanding what individuals want in America and how individual wants compare to other wants. How does one do this? We learn to access information in new ways that are appropriate for our individual needs.

Grant #3: would this work?

As is it would probably work but the model itself when expanded into specifics is far better than the current ethical shenanigans taking place. Risk analysis, return on investment, and total cost of ownership all look good and scattergraphs are pretty narrow toward success.

The model still needs work because this is my model that I've developed from a sampling pool that is limited by the resources I've had available to build it.

Grant #4: would programs like welfare collapse?

I am a technophile as you may have noticed (imagine having no money to buy all these lovely new gadgets) and believe that the best way to insure people are living in a democratic nation is to make sure they take an active role in enabling each step our governing body will take. Why did I point out I'm a technophile though? Rather than jumping to conclusions, read on donkeys read on.

The thing that has always bugged me about social security is that it essentially forces every person in the work force to have a savings account that isn't very sustainable. Nor can our current private investments be depended upon for the latest generation of American's to experience the lifestyle retiree's enjoy today when they tire of working and just want to rest or live life free from the man.

Why I believe Social Security is federal jurisdiction however comes into play here.

1st: Social Security should provide access to basic human needs (food, shelter, medical aid, and clothing) for every individual in this nation in exchange for our contribution to governance by voting and the aforementioned ala carte budgeting process. At any point individuals can elect to live a far simpler lifestyle in exchange for spending one hour a day Monday-Thursday learning about the issues they'll spend an hour voting on Friday.

2nd: Individuals should be allowed to establish a system of credit by which they can access increasingly posh levels of support in exchange for civil service that benefits society on a local, state, national, or global level. (i.e. neighborhood watch, 1 credit...cure the HIV, lot's of credits)

3rd: Social Security existing on a local and state level will provide regional benefits to enhance what is being offered at the federal level.

Anyhow, I've gone on long enough and I think I've made my point that while these issues are complex, they are not impossible to address - it's just easier and cheaper to pretend we don't have to deal...

I'll fix any flow or incomplete sections tomorrow but it's been a pretty long unpaid workday and I'm very tired.

Urban and suburban sprawl could be well accomodated utilizing models that Paolo Soleri developed. One such experimental dense city, ArcoSanti, is very much a grass roots effort to see what people can do when individuals work together to build a city from the ground up that accomodates the population that will live in it.

Arcologies (Architecture + Ecology) are a method of utilizing space in a manner this is efficient, organic, and conducive to a symbiotic balance between humanity and the environment.

While more efficient, the lifestyle in an arcology like Auroville has met with both tremendous economic, social, and environmental success.

Unfortunately many American's just love shoving themselves in cookie cutter boxes they decorate and pretend is a reflection of themselves then freak out when the cougar they displaced with tract homes decides to live the high life on garbage and domestic animals.

The other thing I'd like to point out is that Republican's are correct in suggesting cities are more expensive that suburban sprawl or the boondocks. Population density, ignorance, economics, and sustainability of rural lifestyles plays key roles in that equation that simply don't add up when you consider what would happen if all these urban dwellers suddenly wanted to live the "Green Acre's" instead of "Good Neighbors" way.

Right on upchuck =). Often I feel relatively lonely at choices that seem so completely baffling to those who are so set into these populist driven social constructs that they feel utterly trapped.

So many social, mental/physical health, and identity principles are wrapped up in the established norms that it's as if the key to human ingenuity has been ripped from the ignition of the proverbial vehicle that brought us to where we are today.

As soon as my strawberries are ready, I'm so delivering them to you via the IT>PT>ST>KC Metro method I have to take to get to Seattle.

That was awesome. No matter our disagreements I want to just give you a huge high five for that post. The problem with the blogs is people feel like they can't or dont want to take the time to really take an argument all the way. Way to fucking go!

if you think i'm going to respond to that whole thing, you've got another thing coming.

yes, i went to a liberal arts school too with lots of hippies. yes, i've read several authors regarding social change and have considered naming my first child Noam Zinn. and yes i've seen many of your arguements before. don't think like you're some sort of counter-culutre revolutionary for trying to lecture me.

i still believe that 90% of what you speak of it totally unrealistic. it's very nice, but NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. yes, most of what you say would be great. and sure, i sound like a gizzeled old fart for saying this, but i've been around the block a bit in my limited time on this planet.

did you SEE what just happened in the senate? do you think "a decentralized network of legal botnets operated by individuals to scrape data from information stores that is used to assemble the most accurate picture possible" is on its way?

is it going, today or tomorrow or even this decade or half century, to help my neighbor who is 85 and needs to decide whether or not to eat or take her Parkinson's medication, the homeless guy who camps next to the building I work, the working class youth who wants to go to college but doesn't want to serve in the military or the increasing number of people who are stuck in low-wage jobs with no end in sight.

i want to take part in ACTUALLY making a difference in my lifetime and, right now, that requires a world without your "speshul device that converges voip mobile phone tech, pda tech, automated personal assistant tech, non-diebold themed voting tech, secured wireless networks, variable interfaces, media players, game players, access to self-study education resources ... video phones"

so, you can believe all that you want that i've bought into "the system" and that i'm an "asshole" but i still don't buy 90% of what you're proposing as likely, realistic or in the realm of possibility.

You asked for conversation, you got it. Can't take the heat of a point-by-point counter? Tough.

I listed a number of strategies already in play and I'm essentially saying that your method of using your puny ass tax dollars and two-party vote simply doesn't work. It hasn't worked for a long time and like a pendelum the chaos that comes from our slowly evolving democracy, defined over time by whichever party dominates and the popular state of normal at any given time - doesn't work anymore.

We have the technology to do this now. You want links? Just say yes and I'll go back and introduce you to how social bookmarking works so that you can check it out yourself. Know what's worse? Almost every agency of our government flunks a variety of standards for embracing and securing technology. It costs us a whole lot every time they fuck up because they don't understand technology at all.

Think this is fanciful? It's not really a bad plan at all if people can just put a little effort into making life better through direct involvement instead of that insignificant portion of your tax dollars that you don't really get to decide how to use.

Exactly where do you think technologies like Sony's PSP, mobile phone tech, and personal computers are taking us? They have created a massive communication array that interlinks humanity in a way that is eerily like a network...hmmm..doesn't that seem like a wee bit of an evolutionary trait based largely on the desire to communicate with each other? WTF do you think blogs are so popular for if not the like interests of a demographic?

You want to rant about this and that, it's cool - you're at least using your voice but you can take your criticism of what other people are doing and shove it because I really don't think you get it at all.

For years people have bitching about how the children of the future will have to clean up the messes we make today. We are the children of the future you're talking about Grant and we are standing up even if the hippies of yesterday now sit in an SUV like the rest of the herd.

One last point, I never went to college. I never studied many of the revolutionaries you likely speak of. When I say these models are mine I mean very much that I designed them with controls present to insure I am objective. I know how to do this because I decided to educate myself because the education offered at school never matched my interests, capabilities, and methodologies. When people start trying to insult education, they might as well just say uncle because they are clearly getting off task instead of addressing the issues.

When people ask me if I've read this book or that book, I point out I have a reading list that I've built because I don't have time to read right now. Most of the books on that list are references people make to ideas that others have like mine, I silently take this as a compliment.

Next time you want to play the education card you might ask the necessary questions so you don't look like an ass.

So since you don't seem to get it I'll be blunt:

I'm not asking for your faith, I'm asking America to stand up and figure out what is up and what to do about it right now, and as individuals

You asked for conversation, you got it. Can't take the heat of a point-by-point counter? Tough.

Yes, I did ask for converation and posed some questions, which you seems to take quite personally rather than simple questions. I didn't want to spend my entire afternoon going point-by-point with you about your PSP device or Aramark.

"I really don't think you get it at all"

What don't I get?

I'm essentially saying that your method of using your puny ass tax dollars and two-party vote simply doesn't work

Sorry, is my name Jefferson, Handcock or Washington? Guess not. I'm not saying that our system is perfect. In fact, if it were up to me I'd go for a European parlimentary system which would increase real democracy in this country.

I don't believe in your arguements because I believe that that real social change is a SLOW process. And I want to effect real social change. That require that I work within the system, in my eyes.

We are the children of the future you're talking about Grant

Sorry, I never play the "children are our future" card unless I'm quoting the Simpsons

One last point, I never went to college

And for my inference that you did, I sincerly apologize. I assumed something which I shouldn't have. It shows some of my classism and I am sorry. I assumed that, because many of the things that you speak of are things I studied in college, or theories I read about, that you have gone or are in college. I apologize. Your Aramark rant made me believe you did/have/are going to college.

Next time you want to play the education card you might ask the necessary questions so you don't look like an ass.

I never played any card there, buddy. Never did I state that "I went to college and I'm better than you". Sorry, didn't happen. I just was stating that I've studied many of the theories which you seem to base some of your ideas off of.

I'm not asking for your faith, I'm asking America to stand up and figure out what is up and what to do about it right now, and as individuals

That's what we're trying to do with this forum. I don't see your ideas as realistic, you believe in them. That's great. I want others to jump in here. It seems we've gone beyond simple tax evasion and the ethical ideas behind that. That's a shame, because that's a great coverstation.

But, let's keep talking. TELL me I'm an asshole! Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm right. Let's open this up to others.

What don't I get?

You've cited that you would rather rely on the existing methodologies for making progress. That you would rather work internally than externally. You do not have a plan, nor does anyone in office, to actually deal with the issues facing America today.

Case in point...Terrorism. The US strategy, supported by almost all Americans to handle terrorism consists of trying to kick their ass. The problem is that terrorists are not countries, they are individual cells that exist in nearly every country. The current strategy of illegally violating borders, unilateral invasion, and economic sanctions does not work. Further it makes the problem worse and generates more terrorists. Shall we continue to support these strategies until we push someone into a corner who has no choice but to use a real weapon of mass destruction like releasing an engineered virus? I prefer diplomacy, you know...chit-chat that leads to compromise for the betterment of relationships. Hell in many cases we're actually guilty of some pretty horrendous shit related to why the terrorists hate us in the first place because our government acts without letting us know what we're doing so we can hold them accountable (see Panama as one of a plethora of examples).

Sorry, is my name Jefferson, Handcock or Washington? Guess not. I'm not saying that our system is perfect. In fact, if it were up to me I'd go for a European parlimentary system which would increase real democracy in this country. However, I realize that I, myself, cannot make this happen. I also realize that real social change is a SLOW process. And I want to effect real social change

We are a far cry from the forefathers Grant and it's a bit naive to call our current government or democratic system a parallel. Again you don't seem to understand that I'm not asking you to make this happen, I'm asking everyone to make this happen. You prefer one system, another person prefers another...why isn't it acceptable that we use a variety of methods to find out what our government to be like and build it that way? The constitution is not the ten commandments despite what appears to be massive confusion on this issue. The constituion is a document that is intended to grow with society.

A peaceful revolution through democracy is unrealistic to you? Pish Posh I say for that is lazy.

College Stuff

You seem to be missing my point here Grant. I didn't study the books you did, I haven't been exposed to the revolutionary ideas you have. I make sure that when it comes to strategy it is based not on copying other's moves but how to best move based on an accurate assessment of a daily snapshot, hence the botnets I and others use to gather data we compile, share, and distribute for a far better picture of life on earth than is attainable from news sources, blogs, and disclosures.

My point on education should be clear, I don't care about the piece of paper because it just means another cookie from the cutter. I care about what people do to educate themselves about right now so that they can take all the knowledge, personal experience, and whatever else contributes to their being and uses that information to make the world a better place.

The card you played was not a stupidity card, the card you played was the "you stole other people's ideas" card. I'm just letting you know that I didn't and your statement was inaccurate.

That's what we're trying to do with this forum. I don't see your ideas as realistic, you believe in them. That's great. I want others to jump in here. TELL me I'm an asshole! Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm right. Let's get this going.

Well since you like the abuse...you aren't really all that good at this type of conversation and since you didn't take on my points of The Donkey Punch you must know that's kind of a conversation killer. I gotta admit I didn't put too much energy into this post because I don't feel that you are justified to say my activites are unrealistic without saying what specifically is unrealistic about them. You asked for details I gave them to you and then you whined that it was too much so you just declared it unrealistic...both insulting and improper for debate I'm sure you'll agree.

If I could think of one word to describe your original rebuttal it would be: Fox.

If I could think of one word to describe this type of conversation it would be Fox.

bite me. i'm not going to try anymore.

You do not have a plan, nor does anyone in office, to actually deal with the issues facing America today.

i don't? well, thanks for telling me what i think. can you tell me what i think about the new star wars film, too? is it better or worse than return of the jedi? i need some help.

C'mon, this is fun right? I'm sorry that we disagree but you must admit, friendly jab's aside, this is quite an open expression of ideas is it not?

alright then, truce. but FOX?!?!? FOX?!?!?! c'mon!

I apologize, perhaps I jumped the gun and made a sweeping generalization without knowing the facts at hand or addressing them to you specifically.

pretty damn hard to fight those odd's isn't it?

Now I would love to see your plans Grant, please - by all means let us know what your plans are to help with the great big mess.

btw, haven't seen the latest star wars flick or anything but if I know star wars fan's, incest inuendo, and the fondness for plush toys...you probably weren't too fond of it. I would of course be presuming you'd seen it, wanted to see it, or were in some way affiliated with it.

From my perspective the key point in Return of the Jedi is when Leia learns Luke is her brother, pointing out she always knew, making that scene where she violates Luke in Empire Strikes Back rather icky. Does that help?

jesus christ, what the fuck happended here? i'm sitting here laughing my ass off.

if i were a miracle maker i would find a way to make both of you realize how much in common you share in ideals, values, and good intentions. instead, because of slightly differing world views and ruffled egos you've chosen to be as creative as you cvan with witty one liners and meaningless personal attacks

as for me, i choose to work inside and outside the system...

...and i'm still not going to pay my taxes

do you want me to seriously explain myself again? ok here goes...

if you lived in nazi germany, at what point would you decide to stop supporting the regime with your tax money? after the first jew was thrown in the furnace? maybe the social services that aunt milly gets are worth more than one miserable life, so you might wait until they killed 100? but those health benefits are pretty nice, so you wait for them to kill 1000. but the park system, don't forget about the park system!!! 10,000. but maybe you find the interstate highway system to be worth way more than 10,000 lives, so you're gonna support hitler until he kills 100,000. but hold on, hold on a second! if you stop paying taxes to the third reich now you wont have mail service anymore. fuck it, mail is worth at least 1 million lives of those jesus killers. you're not falling out of the system yet... get the point?

grant, i'm not trying to incite you here. i want to be respectful. i work in the system. you saw me at the town hall on elections. if you went to the local district democratic meetings you would see me raising my voice in opposition to the Iraq War and CAFTA. And yes, I sure as hell voted.

But when it comes to making the moral (yes moral) decision of whether or not I can pay my taxes to the corrupt federal government, i find that i cannot do so with a clear conscience. the comparison to nazi germany is a quite relevant. the lives of the iraqis are devalued by american culture, rhetorically compared to evil terrorist jihadists (not unlike the anti-jewish tone in nazi germany), and their deaths are externalized, sanitized, and censorized by the media. but their deaths are real, illegal, unjust, and our tax money pays for it. sure i like soc security, health bennies, welfare, education, mail service, and highways. and i'd like to see more social services. but for me to pay taxes now is to practice moral relativism and declare that these american social services are woth more than the lives of the iraqi dead. i cannot make that rationalization. this is MY moral decision, i don't mean to make that decision for you, or condemn you as evil for not coming to the same conclusion. but i do encourage you and all to be thoughtful and deliberate when you make these decisions (sounds like you already are). so many people blindly pay their taxes and don't even consider that they have choices.

as for all the techno 'hippie' stuff. i don't know much of what hhz was talking about. it's not immediately relevant to my moral decision not to pay taxes. but i'm going to try and keep an open mind. maybe easier said then done since you were just in a heated personal online debate with him and seem to suffer from a 'cultural divide'. and maybe if hhz presented these ideas in a positive reference rather than while putting you down for differing views people would respond better. but just for conversations sake, here's a littel story about a similar idea that i was first introduced to by independently minded folks from our state's capitol. i lived and worked at TESC 6 years ago and there was a group down there developing biodiesel back then. everyone thought they were bunch of greenie hippie freaks, running cars on used cooking oil, how absurd! now gas is almost $3/gal and all the rich yuppies in seattle love driving their brand new VW tdi's with biodiesel from Dr Dans fuelwerks.

Okay, I'll cede that I was harsh with spinning your comment into a Fox insult but only if you'll go back and add specific comments that explain why you feel the strategies I listed aren't realistic methods to empower individuals and better the democratic process in the United States.

"I luv upchucking"

thanks hhz. i know what you mean. for example when i explain to family and friends that i plan not tp pay taxes they caution me so much about getting into trouble. for them the value of me not serving a day or two in King County or paying some stupid fine is a bigger deal that the killings i am protesting...

luv to try them berries. my girlfriend is growing some this year for the first time too. i'll be sure to invite you up when we have a solstice or harvest party. we haven't made plans just yet...